Author Carmelo Esterrich joins Ricky to discuss his new book Star Wars Multiverse.
Experience 085 Seriously Star Wars on:
Additional Information:
https://www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/star-wars-multiverse/9781978815254
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1978815255/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_65ZAE05Z59HF22RXKDXW
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Show Transcript
Ricky McEachern (00:03):
This episode is a topic everyone is familiar with Star Wars. I recently met this wonderful high-energy guy who had just written a book on the topic. And I knew I had to have him on eager to know who doesn't want to hear from someone who created a book and particularly about a cool topic, like star wars. So he sent me a copy and I loved it. I wanted him on even more. The book explores star wars in a new unique way, a bit more serious, but as you'll soon, realize nothing is too serious with Carmelo. I am thrilled to share my conversation with the author of star wars. Multiverse Carmelo. Esterrich
Ricky McEachern (01:22):
The title of your book is
Ricky McEachern (01:24):
Star wars. Multi-verse correct. What is the book about if I ran into you at, let's say an art opening and I were to ask you about the book that you wrote, what would you tell the person? I
Carmelo Esterrich (01:37):
Would say that my book is less about the franchise, less about the popularity of star wars and more about the world of star wars itself. I was very curious to sort of look at what happens in the narrative itself, keeping in mind that it is an American cultural product. I mean, let's not, let's not kid ourselves. I was very curious to see the different relations that existed in the world, how they use language, um, especially in, um, you know, sort of, uh, a Saifai world, like who speaks English, who doesn't, who gets subtitles, who doesn't and why those kinds of things. I was always very curious about, and it was not something that I was, um, it was not something that I was sort of hearing when I was reading about star wars. Uh, there will be sort of small references to it, but not very much. I was also very curious about gender and sexuality. Um, because that is something that recently people are writing about in star wars. A lot of it is very academic wanting to write something short. I wanted to write something accessible and I was curious about sort of seeing, looking at the world itself
Ricky McEachern (02:53):
And the world of star wars exists outside of the movies. Obviously it's outside the movies and there was also the fan generated content aspect of it, which I was not really aware of. I think I sort of was aware of it until I read your book. And so that's another, that's another aspect to it.
Carmelo Esterrich (03:15):
I, part of my project in writing this book is that the tendency is to only write about the movies recently, especially because of the Mandalorian to write about television as well. But I wanted what I'm calling an all-inclusive star wars. I want it to include everything that discriminated by Lucasfilm and Disney and everything that is created by the fans. Um, from the very beginning, the idea of fan fiction and fan art has always been around. But now, um, especially when star wars started creating what they call star wars celebrations, like a convention of star wars that they do. It's not very periodic is whenever, whenever Disney wants to do it. Um, and it has been around since 1999, it's called star wars celebration is a huge international convention. People come from all over the world and in those places, cosplay and art are huge elements of
Ricky McEachern (04:15):
It. How many of these have you attended? Only two. Okay.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
And where I'm a bad fan. All right. And where and where were they? Um,
Carmelo Esterrich (04:22):
The first one was in Orlando in 2017. And my second one was here in Chicago in 2019. Okay.
Ricky McEachern (04:29):
Let's go back to when you were first exposed to star wars. Tell me about that. Where were you? How old were you?
Carmelo Esterrich (04:41):
I was 12. I was living in Puerto Rico. I'm from Puerto Rico. There was this one movie theater in Puerto Rico. We said it was a United artists theater with OBS with a screen of 150 degrees. And for 1977, that was like magic for me. It was huge, huge screen. And I remember, I don't remember which movie I saw I was watching and this trailer comes up and the trailer was, oh, the typical voiceover. But then this breathing who was the breathing of Darth Vader in the background at the time, I had no idea what it was. And I'm like, what is this? And I remember two things. I remember the breathing of the Darth Vader. And I remember Luke and layer crossing on the rope in, in, at the death star. Those are the only two images that I have right now. And I remember I need to see this thing. And you know, it was very easy to convince my parents to go see it because they love seeing movies like this. So we went on the first weekend. It was October of 1977 and I was just, I just fell in love.
Ricky McEachern (05:46):
Now. I, my first exposure to star wars was the trailer as well for me. So I must have been, uh, I was born in 68. Okay. So what I was nine, you were really young. Okay. My neighbors and I lived right up the street from a big shopping mall with a movie theater. And we went to see some movie and we saw this trailer for a movie called star wars. And I remember leaving after whatever movie we saw and all we were talking about on the walk home was this movie star wars that was coming. We had never seen, I don't know what was in the trailer, but we couldn't stop talking about it. And then when the movie finally came out, I remember older kids went to see it and we all were peppering them with questions. Like, what was it like, tell us about it.
Ricky McEachern (06:43):
And I remember the one thing that sticks out to me in the trailer, there is a part where our two G two gets shot, uh, by the, the little guys with the eyes the jaw was. And it's like, there's this all electrical stuff around him. And he falls over. And I remember being fascinated by that in the trailer, like, what was this? And I thought that R2D2 was this, um, malevolent thing. And I was asking them, oh yes, I did. And, uh, and I just, I'll just never forget that. And I was really young and I remember that more than the movie. I remember the excitement from the trailer.
Carmelo Esterrich (07:25):
I think, I think it's, that's similar to me as well. I don't remember seeing the film for the first time, but the trailer was memorable now. I saw it many, many, many, many times when he came out and I, I never worked when I was 12, but I started raking leaves and mowing lawns. So I could have money enough to go back and see the movie again. And again and again, because it was just marvelous.
Ricky McEachern (07:49):
Now, getting back to your book, what type of person do you think would be interested in reading this book?
Carmelo Esterrich (07:59):
I wrote the book, assuming that the reader might have seen the films, but nothing else, a hardcore fan would enjoy it very much, but I wrote it assuming that they've seen the movies, but they haven't seen the animated shows on TV and they certainly haven't read the comics and they maybe haven't read the novels or the little golden books, all the amazing little golden books. Um, and so I, I sort of thought of, I always say that I wrote this book for an intelligent adult, um, and someone who might be intrigued by star wars might not be necessarily a fan. I I've talked to many fans who have read the book and loved it a lot, and we've had wonderful conversations about it, but it doesn't necessarily, it's not, it's not, um, it's not a book only geared toward the sort of hardcore
Ricky McEachern (08:53):
Fans. What was your intention with, with this book? So when, after someone has read this book, you want to bring them to another place as it relates to their understanding of the star wars world, I guess, like what, how would you, what are you, what's your intention? What was your intention?
Carmelo Esterrich (09:14):
The book originally was called star wars seriously. Um, and because of the series that it is polished, we had to come up with something different because all of the books in the series are taking something seriously. Um, but I really, one of the things that I, that I discovered as I started reading about star wars seriously for this book is that, you know, shows like star Trek shows like Battlestar Galactica, the recent, the expands, there are serious conversations about these television shows, but with star wars, there's always this sort of tendency of like, oh, that's sort of like the kiddie version of space narratives. Right. Um, there have been some serious studies of star wars and some of them are absolutely wonderful, but the tendency has always been that we don't really need to study and think about star wars seriously. And part of what I wanted to do in this, in this book is sort of persuade people. It's like, no, I think it would be really, really important. Think about it in sort of in a deeper way.
Ricky McEachern (10:18):
I'm not a star Trek fan, but from, I know like all my friends are, are star Trek fans, and they're always talking about how star Trek is always talking about serious, deeper issues. And I know it hear that about star wars.
Carmelo Esterrich (10:36):
I think there is. And I'm sure someone's going to kill me out there. I think there's an, there's an earnestness about star Trek about the sort of exploration of the galaxy, um, that sort of calls for thinking about first contact and thinking about civilization and culture and thinking about, um, the idea of, um, of eliminating poverty and progress and modernity and all of these things. And I think in a way star Trek allows for those serious conversations because the stories are exactly about that. Yup. Star wars primarily is a blast. It's just fun, but that doesn't mean that we have to simply enjoy it as fun. I always think of, I think this is something that I say towards the end of the book that I love that star wars is both a distraction and an exploration that we can enjoy it for fun. Or we can sort of think through the enjoyment about all of the things that are happening in there.
Carmelo Esterrich (11:58):
And so I, in a way, part of what I'm doing with the book is sort of holding the hand of the reader about let's look at this again. Let's think about this character. Let's think about this story. Let's think about this planet. Let's think about how the planets relate. Um, because I think with star Trek, it's very, it's there it's like right in your face when Picard goes to a planet where they speak in metaphors it's it's, it's like it's th the discussion is already there. The discussion is already there, I think with star wars. Um, and I think in a way that's sort of the value of my book, um, it's important to sort of, to sort of think about star wars a little deeper, so we can then have serious conversations about what's going on.
Ricky McEachern (12:49):
Okay. When I think of the first time I was aware that there was a universe of star wars outside, the movies was when I was a kid. And I remember there were books coming out and I never really understood what was going on. Obviously there were books coming out that were based on the first movie, the first three movies, but then there were these other books and I'm like, who wrote them? And did they get approval from George Lucas? And who's managing the story. How does that all work?
Carmelo Esterrich (13:17):
Well, we need about 15 hours for that one, but I'll try to summarize
Speaker 4 (13:20):
It as much as I can. Um,
Carmelo Esterrich (13:23):
There is a moment during the first trilogy during star wars, empire strikes back in return of the Jedi. There were of course then novelizations of the movies. And there were a few novels here and there that were sort of surrounding the, the stories, but once return of the Jedi is over and there are quote unquote, no more star wars. Um, Lucasfilm starts thinking about the idea of creating fiction that is related to the stories of the trilogy. And it's not until about or early nineties, 1993, where they start publishing novels in the world of star wars that are related to the trilogy, but are completely new stories with stories with complete, completely new characters that wasn't until 93.
Ricky McEachern (14:12):
Hmm. Okay. For some reason I thought I was seeing them when I was younger, but I'm, uh, I must be mistaken.
Carmelo Esterrich (14:19):
Th there were a few, the explosion of star wars fiction really starts after 1993, when there's a trilogy of novels by Timothy's on with this amazing character called grand Admiral thrawn that later shows up in other stories, but he becomes the villain of star wars at that time. And that novel sort of created an explosion of fiction.
Ricky McEachern (14:44):
Now, television, you mentioned in your book that there were a couple significant television series or content, and I think some of it you mentioned was very, very short, short content. And it sounds like that was very important to the whole star wars universe story,
Carmelo Esterrich (15:04):
Correct. Um, between episode two attack of the clones and episode three revenge of the Sith, and these are part of the prequel trilogy. Um, Lucas hired an animator for cartoon network to do what they call micro episodes. There were two minutes long, three minutes long, they were on television and they would be sort of in between other cartoon shows, very, very, very short episodes that would tell the story of what happens after the end of episode two and the beginning of episode three. And they did it's maybe about two hours of storytelling.
Ricky McEachern (15:45):
Okay. What about comic books? Are there star wars called?
Carmelo Esterrich (15:49):
They were coming back since the very beginning. I
Ricky McEachern (15:51):
Think that, I think that's what I was thinking. I was thinking of. Okay. That's what made all my radar. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Carmelo Esterrich (15:59):
There are literally thousands of comic books.
Ricky McEachern (16:03):
Let's talk about fans of star wars, being creative,
Carmelo Esterrich (16:07):
The idea of fan fiction and fan art is really old. Um, and star Trek had laws of fanfiction done in the sixties and seventies when the shows came out. So this is not unique of star wars. Um, the other element that is very, very popular as the idea of cosplay and cosplay actually started with anime. Um, and it's actually a term that the Japanese created. Um, and so things like superheroes, things like, um, Japanese cartoons, anime, um, even some manga it's something that sort of created, it was created in many, many different narrative worlds that existed in entertainment. Um, the thing about star wars, um, is that it has become ridiculously organized. I mean, if you want to do the costume for a villain in star wars, there's an, an international organization that gives you all of the things that you need to do to that costume.
Carmelo Esterrich (17:15):
So it became, so it can be approved by that organization. It's called the 501st Legion. It was created in California in the nineties. Um, and you can make a costume without it being approved by them, but it is, if it is approved by them, then you have a approved costume to wearing conventions. Um, and you go into that website, I'm doing a new costume for, for the convention next year, I got like, you know, the belt can not be more than two inches wide and the buckle has to show this and that, and you cannot use Velcro. You have to stitch things. And so it's, it's, it's, it's serious business, but one of the really wonderful things about cosplay is that many times it's more than just recreating the character. Sometimes the fans are sort of playing with it and sort of doing, doing mashups or doing sort of creations with them.
Carmelo Esterrich (18:12):
I remember in the, in the last convention that I went, somebody was doing a Mandalorian armor, um, but all using Hawaiian designs and it was gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous. Um, I remember seeing a Malaysian woman using a storm trooper and using the flag of Malaysia covering the entire, the entire costume. Um, there are little things that you can buy, like, you know, like the Mickey's Mickey mouse ears in the shape of Darth Vader. And so you can wear that in the, in the convention, sort of the post Disney purchase of, of star wars. And so you could do something very simple, or you can spend thousands and thousands of thousands of dollars, or like I did, I learned how to sew, so I make it myself. Um, and so it's, it's, it's, it's a creativity that it's more than just replicating the world to me is interpreting the world.
Ricky McEachern (19:11):
Okay. Now, do you find star wars creatively inspiring to you or I do.
Carmelo Esterrich (19:20):
I do. Um, one of the reasons why I wanted to start cosplaying is because I founded that he was on the one hand sort of a way of sort of showing my love, but on the other hand, sort of learning about the world itself. Um, and so all of a sudden, like now I know what a Jedi costume has and all of the little details that, that are sort of attached to it. And I, now I see things that I don't see before now, I'm like blowing up on the computer, sort of like, what does that belt look like? How do you make it and what materials should I use? Um, and so there's this really sort of excitement that is about making something. Sure. Um, and that is not, you know, that, that is something that I made that is related to something I love, but I'm not buying it. Yeah. I'm the making it. Does that make
Ricky McEachern (20:15):
Sense? I mean, it's, it's the difference between consuming creative content that somebody else created and creating something yourself? Absolutely. Have you been to star wars, galaxy edge Galaxy's edge. I think it's called and Walt Disney.
Carmelo Esterrich (20:31):
I have not. I'm waiting. I'm waiting for all the fans to go so I can have space. It's just crazy right now. Absolutely crazy. I wanted to go, I am dying to go and we're planning a trip with my sister and my nephew sometime in 2022. So I did go,
Ricky McEachern (20:51):
I did. Oh goodness. However, it was so crowded. All I did was walk around. I didn't do anything. Yeah. I was so impressed with this place because it looks like it's aged, even though it's brand new, they did such a good job. I was so impressed with it.
Carmelo Esterrich (21:09):
One of the things, and this is not something that I say in the book, because it's been said many, many times, but one of the things that is remarkable about star wars that the alien series also takes off is the idea that in a lot of science fiction, before this, the space ships always look new. If you look at the ships in like 2001, everything looks pristine, like nobody has ever used or walked on any of these spaceships. And one of the really wonderful things, when you see the 1977 star wars, it's a things are war.
Ricky McEachern (21:49):
Yeah. It doesn't Han solo like bang on the millennium Falcon.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Absolutely.
Carmelo Esterrich (21:55):
And the walls are worn and things are broken and wires are coming out of places. And the jaw was San clar crawler. It looks like it has been in the desert for decades. Totally. And so that's, that is remarkable and new in sort of the Hollywood space narratives of the seventies. Um, and so having that age, you're hearing you say that the park looked aged. Oh, makes absolute sense. Because that's part of their training completely.
Ricky McEachern (22:27):
Yeah. It was, it was really well done. Um, I, you know, I'm not going to say too much about it because I didn't spend that much time there. It was too crowded. I wasn't in the mood for dealing with all the crowds, but I was really impressed. Um, they had a millennium Falcon. They had a place where you could go build your own droid.
Carmelo Esterrich (22:47):
I want to make my own lightsaber. That's. What I want to do is can you do that though? There's a store and you can do, you can, you can create someone's light saber in the story like Luke or Vader, or you can create your own. You can be creative about the kind of lightsaber that you want to have.
Ricky McEachern (23:05):
This reminds me of Harry Potter land, whatever it's called in universal. I'm not a big Harry Potter fan. I read a couple of the books, but I'm a, I'm a big amusement park and roller coaster fan. So I talked to people about this park all the time. I am so envious of people that are obsessed with Harry Potter because someone built an entire land for them. I mean, that must be unbelievable. And star wars would be the same. Uh, it would be the same thing. Like if I was a star wars fan, the fact that somebody built this must be incredible.
Carmelo Esterrich (23:42):
I am a Harry Potter fan. I spent a day crying at that park. My two nieces took pictures of me crying. There's like hundreds of pictures of me looking at something and crying. And I, and so I, I don't even know how I'm going to react when I go to Galaxy's edge because, because, you know, Harry Potter, I read the Harry Potter books because my nephews were growing up while they were reading them. And so I wanted to have that connection with them, but I was not a child. When I read them. I was 12 when I saw star wars. So it's going to be, it's going to be a very emotional experience, very, very emotional experience. And I'm going with my nephew and I am the one responsible for his star wars fandom. So it's going to be, how old is he? He's 28 now. Okay. 28 down,
Ricky McEachern (24:31):
Obviously star wars has good and evil. And it kind of seems to me that people are just a bigger fans of the evil characters as they are the good ones. Am I reading this? Correct? Well, you have a point. Um,
Carmelo Esterrich (24:49):
There, there are lots of people that love the Jedi. There are lots of people that love the good guys. Um, but it is quite amazing how, even though the stories are very clearly set, that we're supposed to like the good guys and we're supposed to not root for the bad guys. And yet there is a huge amount of people all over the world. Like literally all over the world who are attracted by the empire who are attracted by Darth Vader, who are attracted by the Sith. There you go.
Ricky McEachern (25:23):
I'm holding up my backpack that I, I just, that it is a I'll post a picture of it on the notes, but it is. I bought it at target it's target boys department $14. It is a storm trooper backpack. And I forgot that I had this.
Carmelo Esterrich (25:40):
When I went to star wars celebration of the first time in Orlando, I had to wait in line like we do for everything for the store. I waited five hours and 10 minutes to enter the store. So I made friends in the line waiting to enter the store. And there was this really awesome guy from Indiana. And we were just chatting and we finally get into the store and I go to buy these, these little bags. And they had either the rebel symbol or the Imperial symbol. And I went straight for the rebel symbol and he says, what are you doing? Why are you grabbing that one? Cause, cause that's what I wanted to get. It's like, you're not going to get the Imperial one. And inside of me, it's like,
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Wait a minute. I thought I knew you I've been talking to you for five hours. I had no idea that you prefer the empire to the rebel Alliance.
Carmelo Esterrich (26:39):
And it's been a, it's been a learning for me meeting more and more people who find the Jedi objectionable, who find the Jetta politically naive, who find the Jedi too innocent. They'd sort of don't get the world and the empire gets the world. And so I think there is this really interesting attraction to discipline, to order to authority that are a lot of people find very, very comforting and we can get into a bigger political discussion about this, but it's been really interesting for me to discover that there are people that go to star wars because of the Jedi. There are people that go to star wars because of acute creatures in the droids. And there are people that go to star wars because even though they're on the losing side, they are very attracted to this notion of, of order to this notion of order. Um, and so it's, it's, it's been fun and interesting. I, you know, I, I don't know that I'll ever be, have the magic of being able to write another book on star wars. But if I were one of the things that I would love to write a book about baddies about the bad guys, because that is a fascinating phenomenon and something that I, I had not really thought about until I started
Ricky McEachern (28:08):
Has the process of writing this book changed your viewpoint on the star wars universe, your relationship with star wars, has it, what has it done for your relationship?
Carmelo Esterrich (28:19):
It's really interesting how the book actually did what I want the readers to have done. It made me think more seriously about star wars and they were many parts in the book that I was sort of like, so what do I want to say? Now I have a soft spot for the conclusion of my book, because there are so many moments there of reflection that most of what I say in that last chapter, in that that conclusion are things that I thought as I was writing the book, they were not things that I had always thought about star wars. They were things that I thought as I put the book together. And so it was really fun that, that I even took star wars more seriously than I thought when I, when I put the book together. So that was sort of an exciting little discovery
Ricky McEachern (29:10):
There. Good. Well, I very much enjoyed reading it. Um, I didn't think of it as really serious. I thought it was very enjoyable to read. Good. And it definitely opened up new aspects to, to star wars that I wasn't aware of. And I guess I probably, I think I knew my I'm realizing, I probably knew my way around the star wars universe more than I thought I did because there was nothing that kind of threw me for a loop. Um, I think I was not aware the amount of content outside of the movies. I was not aware of that. And I certainly wasn't aware of all the, the fan content, which was super interesting and exciting. Yeah.
Carmelo Esterrich (29:53):
And to me, to me, serious is always fun in response to what you just said. Um, and I, I, you can be serious and totally enjoyable at the same time. And I'm hoping that the book sort of created that balance of, of thinking and enjoying at the same time.
Ricky McEachern (30:11):
So if people are interested in star wars, multi-verse where can they get this book?
Carmelo Esterrich (30:17):
The more, the most direct way is to go to Rutgers university, press the website, which is what's. The URL is Rutgers university, press.org. You can also buy it on Amazon. And if you're in Chicago on Unnabridged bookshop and Anderson's bookshop, will carry it as well.
Ricky McEachern (30:33):
Well, Carmelo Esterrich. thank you very much for talking about your book star wars multi-verse it was fun. So this was great. Thank you.
Ricky McEachern (30:47):
[inaudible]
Ricky McEachern (30:47):
My name is Ricky McEachern and you have been listening to eager to know the podcast. If you haven't already please go to apple podcasts and subscribe rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another eager to know podcast.